SUNDAY ROUND TABLE DISCUSSION TOPIC

[Pamela]

This is from a NY Times article dated June 2, 2003.  Keep in mind this was about a week after the end of AI2.  

...RCA executives acknowledge that Mr. Aiken is different from the current crop of young stars, like Christina Aguilera, but say the label intends to trust the value of that image and play to the tastes that have already made him popular.

''He's just a good guy who happens to have an unbelievably great voice,'' said Aaron Borns, marketing director for RCA Records. ''We're not going to make him something he's not.''

Whatever the genre of his album, the songs will showcase his vocal skill, he said. And the fans, Mr. Borns said, will follow. ''A powerful singer the way Clay is -- he can forge his own way, so to speak,'' Mr. Borns said...

The CD in question was of course, Measure of a Man.  There are lots of questions that arise from this excerpt.  Do you think RCA served Clay well with the songs and production on MoaM; do you think it 'plays to the tastes that made him popular?'  And, is that a good thing for Clay or a cash in for the record company?  And secondly, do you think the songs on MoaM do showcase Clay's vocal skill?  What do you think about the comment "and the fans...will follow."

Do you think a recording should be only about showcasing vocal skill?  Discuss!

[lorraine]

A COUPLE OF THINGS.  NO I DON'T THINK RCA DID CLAY JUSTICE ON HIS MOAM CD BUT I THINK ANYTHING AT THAT TIME THAT CLAY CAME OUT WITH I WOULD HAVE BOUGHT.  YES I LOVE ALL THE SONGS ON THAT CD BUT AFTER LISTENING TO A COUPLE OF DEMOS CLAY MADE HIS VOICE IS UNBELIEVABLE IN SOME SONGS THAT MOAM NEVER EVEN SHOWED.  I THINK THAT RCA RUSHED ON HIS CD JUST TO BE PUT OUT THERE TO MAKE MONEY NEVER THINKING THAT CLAY WOULD BE WHERE HE IS TODAY.

LORRAINE

[Glory]

I agree with LOrraine, I love MOAM,but listening to the DEMOS,there is much more power and range in them, I must confess I listen to the Demos more these days,IF RCA would release a few of these songs IT would go Double Platinum in a couple of days i am sure of that. GLORY(NOTE)

[clayMaine-iac]

I am of 2 minds when I think of Clay.

On one hand,  what "sucked me in" to begin with, was the VOX.  I believe there is even more to the VOX then was showcased on MOAM. ( Yes, I would purchase a CD of Clay singing all the wonderful old classics with lots of GLORY notes and "belltones"!!!)
 :  :  :

On the other hand, I want more than anything, for Clay to be around singing to us for the next 50 years!!  So, therefore, I think he does need "radio friendly" material.  I think that Invisible may have been one of the few songs on MOAM to showcase this aspect.  I know some people were disappointed with the radio play for Invisible, but I thought it did well considering how "new" Clay was in the industry. Should RCA have included more "hip" music on MOAM? :  :

I think Clay CAN SING ANYTHING!!!, so that was never in doubt for me.  But, if I am of 2 minds (and I'm a loyal Clay fan) about this topic, than where did that leave the section of population that weren't familiar with Clay from AI???  Where do you draw the line and what is the best road for Clay to take on his next CD???? :?:  :?:

Personally, I would purchase anything Clay sang!!!  So my only concern would be having "new" fans purchase as well.  

Deanna

[tessie]

It is easier to look back and say what should have been, but in my opinion, MOAM was a fine starting point for Clay.  As fans, we are eager for Clay to be a success and have a lasting career, but like it or not, we have to remember that for RCA this is a business involving millions of dollars.  I think they should be complimented for letting Clay go in the direction he wanted , taking a chance that there would be no market for him.  Knowing and liking him from AI, fans liked what they had seen and heard.  To stick with this, in my opinion was a good plan.  I have argued this point often using Ruben as an example of bad choice in direction.  Go with what the public knows and likes, and then veer off into the untested.

That being said, to me many of the songs on MOAM are similar and although ok, are just ok.  After reading so much about what everyone likes, I realize that I am in the minority with my favorites.  To me, The Way is the only song that showcases Clay's ability to soar.  It has been my favorite since unwrapping the CD.  Measure of a Man showcases who Clay is, and who it is important for him to be.  Invisible, although strange, was catchy and radio friendly.  Touch shows that Clay can change tempo successfully.  WYSYLM is another of my favorites....and to me seems as though it would be radio friendly as well.  TITN is a good teen romancy song.  The rest of the songs I can take or leave.

I think RCA was doing both....getting Clay out to the public and trying to make money.  Hopefully by now they recognize what they have and will do better next time.  

My husband has said all along that what Clay needs is a new, great song that will be known as "Clay's song".  Seeing him with Neil Sedaka, hearing that Elton John has taken an interest, watching him on the AFI's with Marvin Hamlish, Burt Bacharach and the other great song writers gives me great hope that these talented people are aware of how special Clay's talent is.

To the last point,  I think a CD has to do lots of things.  Vocal talent has to be displayed, but it surely has to have appeal to the people that intend to buy it, play it, listen to it, talk about it, and buy many others by the same artist.

[mrsaiken3504]

hmm... interesting article. From what I know, when they were recording the CD, some songs had more cuss words, and some more... sexual lyrics, etc. Clay didn't want to sing all that stuff, so he took it out. He does say damned in I survived You, even though he didn't want to. ANd as we all know he hates Touch. I actually think the songs that have been chosen do not show his vocal capability, he is sich an amazing singer, he blows you away. Solitare is one of those songs that blows you away. The songs are still great of course. The fans comment- I perceive it as him saying, CLay has such a strong fan base that no matter what type of album is produced it should sell well.  Of course we all know that albums do not always show vocal skills, that record companies are there for only one thing; to sell records to make money.

[tiff]

As much as I love MOAM (and I really love it!), I can't help but feel it was over-produced. Some songs would much better showcase his voice if some of the background stuff was stripped away. Take 'Measure of a Man' for instance. If you compare the album version to the AOL sessions version or any accoustic (sp?) version like on tour, you'll see what I mean. It showcases Clay's voice so much more, and I personally felt it had more emotion in it without all the production.  

But I agree with ClayMaine-iac about the radio friendly thing. For Clay to stick around, he's going to need radio friendly material.  Maybe not so much wiht the AC charts, but to be on the Top40 charts (IMO only), I think he's going to need more production, as everything on Top40 is over-produced (IMO, again).  Actually, Top40 chart isn't even about vocal ability, but that's a different topic.

If it were me (and I'm very glad it's not), I would probably put songs that were a bit more produced so it could be put out as singles.  And I would put the demo-like songs to showcase Clay's voice and vocal ability. In other words, I would put a wide range of stuff on his album to satisfy everyone.

But ofcouse, I'm not the professional. As someone once said, "Clay can sing the alphabet song and it would go triple platnum!" :D

[wil555]

As much as I love MOAM (and I really love it!), I can't help but feel it was over-produced.

I feel that way, too. I mean, he released three songs from it as singles. That's overkill. One quarter of the album has been rereleased, and that's not worth that much time. No artist who ever became a music icon rode his first album for seven months. Clay should really get to work on his next album, to keep giving his fans something new, so they don't tire of his only album (Okay, and two extras) too quickly.

[Clara]

I also think that some of the songs on his demos are much better than MOAM. I agree that MOAM was overproduced and that Clay is still missing "his" song. But I'm thinking now about "... and his fans will follow."

I guess all of us will buy any CD that Clay records, but, even though I love the idea of having Clay sing all those beautiful Christmas classics, I wonder if a Christmas album is a good choice.

I fear - and I hope I'm terribly wrong - it's going to be a "season" album and it will disappear after Dec. 25 and get Clay nowhere on the sales charts, pop charts, top 40 charts, etc. etc.

Sure, we will buy it, but... are we, or other people, going to buy it AFTER Dec. 25?

You can say that it may become a classic, like the old "White Christmas," but in that case, Clay would need an original song. Will he have it? Besides, I read somewhere on this board that the market is usually flooded with Christmas CDs during the last two months of the year.

And... are people who are NOT Christians buy it all the same, just because they love the songs, even when their lyrics have a religious content they don't share?

Maybe RCA expects his fans to make him triple platinum before Dec. 25. I believe his second record would have a better chance if it were NOT a Christmas album.

We, his fans, will follow Clay... but his record company should try to make the trip easier.

My humble opinion. Sorry for making it so long.

[Prissy]

Pamela,

This is an interesting topic to discuss, and one that we've "dabbled" at in other threads.

Clay is "unique" and it is this "uniqueness" that had made it difficult to place him in any categories.  I imagine that it   was hard to select songs for that first album.  What direction should be taken?  Pop? Adult Contemporary? Rock?  Country? Gospel? Clay has the ability to sing any of these types of music, and we all witnessed this on AI2.  Of course, "Pop" was selected, but did the MOAM songs really fit that  bill?  I don't listen to enough "Pop" music to really know.  My "Pop" music education has taken place on TRL   :roll:  when Clay has had a video.

Like Tessie, I think certain songs on MOAM showcased his voice better than others:  "The Way," "When You Say You Love Me," and "Invisible."  I think that "I Will Carry You" is least favorable to his voice.  I also feel, as many others have said, that the accompaniments were too overproduced, intense, and LOUD!  That is probably why I chose the three songs  I did as my favorties, because the accompaniments on them were the least offensive.  

For a first effort, MOAM was okay.  The die-hard Clay fans were going to buy it no matter what.  Others have bought it, too, or triple platinum would not have happened!

I hope that the Christmas Album will not be a "one time only" success, but a standard that will be reissued every Christmas like Bing Crosby's "White Christmas" and other Christmas albums.  I think this is a real possibility, if the right songs are selected and the accompaniments are carefully orchestrated.

What should the next album include?  I don't have a clue.  Should it be a mix of AC, country, pop, etc.?  Should it be all one category?  Probably, but  what?  I hope Clay has very intelligent, music savvy people around him as he makes these decisions. It's important that the second album be as great or even greater hit than the first, so he is not looked at by the public as just someone who "rode the wave" of AI.

Prissy

[ANGELA]

I feel that if CLAY comes out with a Christmas CD he will appear on many Christmas Specials that will give him more exposure.  He may even give another leg to MOAM.

As far as MOAM goes---I really do enjoy listening to it.  I just wish for less band & more ofCLAY's voice, like in his Demo's.  Clay has a voice to die for & all Clay needs is a little background music..His voice is heavenly, no need to have such a loud band.

Angela

[Pamela]

I feel that way, too. I mean, he released three songs from it as singles. That's overkill. One quarter of the album has been rereleased, and that's not worth that much time. No artist who ever became a music icon rode his first album for seven months. Clay should really get to work on his next album, to keep giving his fans something new, so they don't tire of his only album (Okay, and two extras) too quickly.

Clay said in an interview (that I would go find if I had the time) that his next CD would come out after Kelly's CD.  Evidently, as the first 'AI' she has the right to release her second CD first.  I don't know why, but that's what was said.  Kelly's is supposed to come out this winter and Clay's in the Spring of 2005.  Bummer man.

This is why it seems very important to me that IWCY is successful on the radio.  Most pop stations don't give too many songs much longevity.  Unless your Usher or Outkast that is.  :

But on AC and Hot AC, songs are played for a longer period of time.  There are still AC stations playing Invisible, for example.  Personally, even in Raleigh I haven't heard enough of anything by Clay on the radio to be sick of it yet.  In fact, it's kind of a thrill to be cruising down I40 listening to the radio and all of a sudden....'what 'cha doin tonight?' blasts through the speakers.  

Yeah, I'm pathetic.  Never said I wasn't.   :

[tessie]

Is there any word on what the B side of IWCY will be?  There was a great article (in my opinion) by James Shepherd (I think) a while back as to his opinions of what Clay should release.  He had things from MOAM and which covers he though would go well on the B sides.  Anyone familiar with that article?

[houstonclayfan]

Tessie, I did see that article. He suggested When A Man Loves a Woman  :mrgreen:

But, from what I heard, IWCY is not being released to stores, which makes sense since we already have IWCY on MOAM and it is being released to the radio to sell more MOAMs.  Just like Invisible, it will be released to the radio but not in stores as a single.

Basically, the idea is to attract NEW fans.

[clayMaine-iac]

Tessie,
In honor of your birthday (and because I like you!!! :  : ):

Clay Aiken's  Solitaire
by James Shepherd (2003/12/17)

I wonder if Clay Aiken fans feel a bit teased by RCA when it  announced the release of the new single Invisible/Solitaire, and then to have it delayed twice, with the second delay giving no specific date? I am sure that RCA was not intending to tease people, but were the delays the result of increased sales of the album through more radio play as Invisible has finally crept up the singles charts? If such is the case, this begs the question as to the function of singles in today's music marketplace. Are singles merely a costly marketing tool used by the recording industry? How many singles need to be sold in order to break even and bring in a profit? Is there even a break even point on singles, and are they merely expensive marketing tools for an album?

Apparently, RCA has now decided to cancel the proposed single Invisible/Solitaire. Well that was a really big tease was it not? Never fear, at least the record label has shown itself to be quite astute indeed by suggesting Solitaire as the "B" side, and actually knows what Clay fans want and are looking for. Whether it will actually deliver another single of substance in the near future is another question, but at least it leaves room for a bit of fun in speculating what kind of single mixes RCA could cook up. Let us see what could be.


The Way/Solitaire

If Clay and RCA have been not getting along lately, the area of contention may be in what should be combined with Solitaire. Solitaire is for the fans, and whatever else goes with Solitaire from "Measure of a Man" is to promote the album. Since Invisible is already out there as a single, but to only the radio stations, if a new single is to be released for the public to buy, the album would be better promoted by releasing another cut from the album. This is not brain surgery. The Way was one of the few album cuts that even negative reviewers actually liked. But why stop here? Why no consideration for other combinations?


I Will Carry You/Unchained Melody

If RCA thinks that Clay fans would pick up The Way/Solitaire single simply to get their hands on Solitaire, the fans would do the same for Unchained Melody. Also, I truly believe that I Will Carry You is the best cut on "Measure of a Man." It would appeal to a broad market in radio. But what do I know, eh? As for Unchained Melody, I think that radio stations would give this one a go on their play-lists too.


Measure of a Man/Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me

Surely releasing a single with the cover song of the album is an appropriate marketing step, not to mention that the song, Measure of a Man, is a one of the best ballads on Clay's album. As for the Elton John's classic, Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me, it was Clay's performance of this number in the wild-card competition of AI2 that made many people perk up and take notice of him. Even Simon Cowell gave one of his very few public compliments to Clay after Randy and Paula both gave Clay a standing ovation. There is a personal significance of this song for the fans, and they would make this single another platinum - you can bet on it!


Touch/On the Wings of Love

Touch stands out on Clay's album because it seems so different from the rest of the recordings. It is not my favourite, but I am aware that many people do like this number. It has a slightly sassy feel to its beat that I usually do not enjoy in a song, but Clay's melodic voice takes it through to a realm wherein I can find comfort. On the Wings of Love was already recorded by Clay on the "American Idol 2, All-Time Classic American Love Songs" album. Clay's rendition of this song is quite memorable, and this would be the quickest single to make since both sides have been previously recorded, not to mention inexpensive to produce.


Singles Promoting Separate Albums

Suppose the following scenario ensued:
- RCA released all four singles described above at intervals of two months apart starting early in 2004. All four singles would be available for purchase by the public, of course.
- Three or four months after the release of the last single, RCA released Clay Aiken's second album entitled: "Classic Pop: Clay Aiken." On this album would be those four cuts from the "B" side of the four singles, plus 8-10 other classic pop songs.

In essence, RCA would be able to use these singles to promote "Measure of a Man," and the upcoming new album - "Classic Pop." Given the past history of the buying power of Clay fans I believe that one can be fairly certain that all four of these singles would be soon certified gold, and a couple of them would probably shoot up into the platinum range.

What the radio stations would see is that RCA is really serious about this new artist, Clay Aiken. This kind of "hint" from RCA might force reconsideration of prejudices that radio management could be holding. Let us face it, no one releases four singles from one artist in a period of eight months this day and age. Surely people will take notice of this event. But if they don't, at least Clay can go off to receive even more awards next year for having four hit singles.

The real beauty of such a scheme though rests in the fact that with the release of each one of these singles, Clay's first album, "Measure of a Man" would be promoted, and, Clay's upcoming album would be promoted too - please note, I'm just using "Classic Pop" as a working title for this phantom album. Who knows what RCA and Clay have up their sleeves for the next album.


Christmastime is a Time for Dreaming

Now comes the real fun. I have already told Clive Davis at RCA how to promote Clay Aiken in this article. I doubt such arrogance on my part will be well received, but I'd rather look at it as merely a suggestion to RCA to "think outside of the box." As long as thinking outside of the box is not being done in a padded cell, then everything should be ok.

As for the phantom upcoming album of Clay Aiken's that I have titled "Classic Pop," what would be the numbers on it? Well, I have already identified four of them from above:
Solitaire
Unchained Melody
Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me
On the Wings of Love

What about the rest? Below is my suggested list:
Dream Lover
Hold Me, Thrill Me, Kiss Me
My Girl
Open Arms
Bridge Over Troubled Water*
Here, There, Everywhere
What Becomes of the Broken Hearted
Crying**
To Love Somebody***
When a Man Loves a Woman***
______
  *Not the cut from Clay's single, but rather, the live performance of Bridge Over Troubled Water from the final program of AI2 competition - it's just much better.
 **I am very reluctant to listen to anyone sing that old Roy Orbison classic, Crying, because I believe Orbison had the best male singing voice in the last half of the 20th century. But I think if anyone can do the song justice, it would be Clay.
***These seem to be very special favourites of Clay fans.

I am certain that Clay fans would have many other suggestions for the contents of the next album. Please send them to RCA. As for all those anti-Clay people, please refrain from sending me more emails asking how much the Claymaniacs paid me to write this article. I received not a penny from them.

http://www.beaversonidol.com/articles/clayaikensolitairesingle.html

I am not sure that IWCY will be released as a "Single".  It may just be released to radio. :(  :(
Deanna

[clayMaine-iac]

Hi, Colleen

I see we were posting at the same time, :roll:  :roll:  :roll:

Deanna

[houstonclayfan]

Deanna, wow you are quick  :    Thanks !  I like that article too  :

[tiff]

I fear - and I hope I'm terribly wrong - it's going to be a "season" album and it will disappear after Dec. 25 and get Clay nowhere on the sales charts, pop charts, top 40 charts, etc. etc.

Sure, we will buy it, but... are we, or other people, going to buy it AFTER Dec. 25?

Thanks for bringing this up Clara, I've never thought about it before. I think it would be much harder for a new artist of have a classic holiday album. And like other's have said, Clay would need an orginal song. Ruben is making a gospel album, and that can be bought year-round, but a holiday album can't.

I also tend to think, but I'm not really sure, that it would be taken off the shelves once Christmas is over. So even if us fans wanted to continue to buy it, we couldn't.

What's going to happen after the holidays? Are they going to go back to promoting Moam? or the holiday album? It doesn't make sense to promote a holiday album after the holidays. But it doesn't really make sense to promote the older album.  Unless they come out with a new single to promote? Who knows, I guess time will tell.

And... are people who are NOT Christians buy it all the same, just because they love the songs, even when their lyrics have a religious content they don't share?

I can only speak for myself about this, but I woud buy it just the same. Personally, I enjoy lots of Christian/holiday songs even though I don't share the same religion. Now, it doens't mean I don't share the same values. There are values in the Christian religion that I agree with, and others I don't. However, even if I don't share the same content in the song, if I like the music, I'll still listen to it.

[clayaikenwow]

well here are my thoughts!
I personally do not think that MOAM shows off clays vocal ability, as paula ssaid once " I think clays voice is better then his cd" Although i love MOAM , i cant get enough of it , and clay sings those songs the best they can be sung, clay should be getting songs more like celine and josh are singing power songs. we all know hes fantastic at it. Like do you all notice that if you listen to IWCY, MOAM , ISY for instinice on the cd its awesome right ?!! But then when he sings it live its incredible like  he shows his voice WAY more then on the cd, live he is breath taking, its like they held back on the cd thats what i think. Im not complaining though because the cd is glorious! I hope though that his next cd has more power songs ! Clays voice is honestly amazing like everytime i hear him it gives me shivers it has something that no one else has i dotn even know what it is lol ! I love the title choice!! measure of a man! Thats is beautiful and fits clay perfect. Im very pleased how clay hasnt drifted away from clayton in teh past year, its very nice to see! Hes more envolved with BAF and childrena nd charity then ever and staying true to his christianity its amazing! He is amazing. Im glad that he left RCA to go to the firm i believe he has more say and thats what he wants , hes no " pop star" hes more like an inspiration star! I dont know what to say about him anymore, everything i see him do is bigger and better then the last( sound familar! lol)Now i have forgotten all the questions asked in this thread!
I agree with what someone said about clay getting his one great song that he is remembered for . Everyone knows his talent , he just needs that one song that he will be remembered by like sedaka has solitaire( although its liek clays song lol) and celine has the titanic song and those people , he needs one of his own something great written just for him, hes already got many covers that have become his songs but he needs his own ya know, it would be beautiful i think that will soon come, i mena hes always the top nameon teh list for any event needing singing or a certain sng to be sang only by the best they always ask clay . I really believe people know that this kid has probably one of the best voices ever heard up to this point, and it really is true. Hes goin to be around for a long time there is something special and different, something people cant get there eyes hears and minds off of, clay aiken is going to be a legend , after just one year hes being put on the same level with  decades of singers and legends, and hes just starting. Like everyday we read about something great he has done its amazing! It dosnt stop and it dosnt go to his head hes calm , and loving and just takes life as it comes, hes goin to do some remarkable things in his life , and im so happy that all of us get to share it with him!!CLAY YOU ARE THE BEST ! :D

[tessie]

Thanks Deanna for finding that article.  I didn't realize that IWCY would only be a radio single.  For me, it is just an OK song and although I would buy it for the B side, if there were to be one, I would not buy it for something else from MOAM.

I liked that James Shepherd article and even e-mailed him at the time that I wish RCA would listen to him.

People have suggested that Clay do a CD of just covers.  I would love that, but I think he needs to do something to really make his mark first.  As I said before, he seems to be in the company of excellent song writers who have taken notice of him.  Let's hope that one of them can write something exceptional for him.